'Courtesy Shots' and SSS

Can someone explain SSS to me??

Ive played in team stableford today, and as usual was only lady there.

After we played, some guys i was talking to said that as the SSS off yellows was 70 and SSS off reds was 73, i should have had 3 'courtesy shots' ie 3 additional shots on my handicap.

Is this correct?? 

It's ok - quick google and trip to CONGU site ha pointed me in right direction :-)

1. SINGLES COMPETITIONS

(a) Stroke Play

It is recommended that, for handicap purposes all players play off their CONGU® handicap and from tees with a Rated SSS making the competition Qualifying for handicap purposes.
The handicap adjustments are then ONLY APPLIED for COMPETITION RESULT PURPOSES.
In all Stroke Play competitions, where appropriate, the Ladies' handicaps must be adjusted to take account of the difference in the Standard Scratch Scores (SSS) of the courses being used according to the following:

Ladies' Competition H/cap = Ladies' CONGU H/cap  + (SSSladies – SSSmen)

Worth knowing for anyone playing in mixed competition though......

This is a classic example of how stupid the congu system is. Ladies already get the advantage from the tee which is quite substantial at my club and the courses are rated higher for SSS. The best of both worlds.

Couldn't agree more John. At my company golf day a woman won the longest drive. The tee box she was off was already 70+yrds in fron of the men's tee. Whats that all about? And she won with a handicap of 36.

Jane,

I don't think the type of Comp you played in (Team Stableford) and the posted CONGU (Singles) statement match. 

This question can soon open a can of worms.

A Mixed Comp where everyone plays off the same Tees?

A Better-Ball Stableford, where the Par for a hole is different?

Danny,

A Long Drive contest is just that, a Longest Drive. If a person has a '70yd start' then their measured drive should have 70yds deducted.

TheLyth

Yeah i have opened up a can of worms, but the CONGU explaination was quite good i thought.

AS with most professional sports, the women cannot compete on an even playing field with the men (as demonstrated by Michelle Wie!!) so thats why our SSS is higher, even with the tee advantage (which doesnt happen all the time)

So if we are all playing in a mixed competition, with full (non bandit) handicaps, the ladies (with no adjustment) are technically playing a harder course than the men.

Mixed competion on same course is essentially two competitions, as the courses are different.

Agree with the 70 yard advantage issue though, i've played in competions with longest drives and had always thought there would be a limit on the tee advantage.

On a sad note, if i'd known this a couple of months earlier i'd have had two extra shots and qualified for the Golfshake Open :-(((

So if we are all playing in a mixed competition, with full (non bandit) handicaps, the ladies (with no adjustment) are technically playing a harder course than the men.

The only difference would be that the course is longer for you off the whites/yellows as opposed to the red tees, but this does not only apply to you, what about us veterans who do not hit the ball very far, we are in the same boat but without the advantage of a forward tee.

The harder course reference was aimed at the differing SSS. If a scratch man takes 70 to go round, and scratch lady takes 72, surely that differential should be applied through all levels??

Re your veteran comment - i agree. That's actually something i mentioned to my colleague earlier today, there is no 'senior' tee

Why not have an orange tee in between reds and yellows??

 Although should we then have a senior red tee?? Maybe a nice pink one 50 yards from the green for the old grannies??

I've seen a couple of old ladies take a driver on a 110 yard par 3 and still come short.  Those pink tees may not be far enough forward Jane!

We have an excellent young lady at my club playing off six, and Chris, cast your mind back to the 14th at Sherfield Waterloo course. She drives right to the end of the fairway and only has less than a wedge to the green, this, on a hole that I have only ever managed to reach in two shots twice in the four years that I have been a member.

She actually won the ladies club championship with a lower gross score than the men could manage.

Lol fair comment!!!

But back to topic - we all play the game and abide by the rules, so do i just be quiet and rue my missed opportunity at Golfshake glory or bite bullet and play off correct 'adjusted' handicap?

Ive moved down to North East fairly recently, only started playing seriously again last year, and dont want to join a club yet, and have been lucky enough to find Golfshake, and through that TGA tour. Am very competitive and will play anywhere, just so happens that vast majority of time i am only female playing... i dont want to provoke same reactions as John and Danny above in the group that i do play with.

Ps on our last outing, they very kindly had the longest drive competition at the only hole where red tee was behind yellows lol!!!

Jane, please don't get me wrong I am a great supporter of our ladies section at my club. Always the first to help out for their events and also the first to join in the mixed comps that they put on.

Good to hear :-)

Unfortunately i dont have funds to join club right now, and the one group of ladies ive amazingly found are all new to the game, with only one or two having handicaps.

I want to get out as much as possible and if it means being only gal in with the guys then so be it.

Just want to make sure i'm playing by rules!

Also if i go in for anymore Golfshake stuff i want to know as well :-)

The difference afforded to the ladies seems more than fair to me.

The SSS is meant to reflect the difficulty of the score and is based on competiton (i.e. medal rounds) for that tee, each course should be re evaluated at least every 10 years and new courses I believe every 3 (not sure when a course stops being new).

 Seniors play of the same tees, and often in the same competitions as the regular male members, the sss for those tees is based on the combined results of all players over time, also the handicaps of the seniors are based on their scores relative to the CSS of the comps they entered on that same course.

 So Jane is correct in saying that in theory if the ladies SSS is 73 and the mens is 70 they are playing a harder course.

Statistically a lady palying of 20 would on average score less points on the same course playing from the red tees than a man, senior or otherwise playing from which wever tees (yellow??) that had a SSS of 70. So to even the comeptition the ladies are given the courtesey shots.

The one area I am not sure of is if in this case the lady plasy off 34 or higher are they allowed to pass the normal competition threshold of 36?

Graham,

You have opened the Can of Worms.

You say that a course with a Ladies SSS of 73 is harder than the Gents SSS 70, how do you come to that conclusion?

Are you saying that a 'Scratch' Man will shoot 70 off the Gents Tees and 73 off the Ladies Tees? And a 'Scratch' Lady will shoot a lower score off the Gents Tees?

The Ladies Hcp's are set up from a SSS73 and the Gents from a SSS70 and this is where the difference comes in, not on the courses difficulty. Ladies play some holes over 420yds as a Par5 and you will not find many Par3's over 200yds for the Ladies.

A Seniors Hcp is based on the same SSS as the rest of that gender so why should they get special Tees, unless their Hcp is also adjusted from those Tees.

I have played in some real Fun Day Comps where a Team consisted of a Tiger (Hcp12<, a Rabbit (Hcp13> and a Lady, each playing off a different Tee. Tiger off White, Rabbit off Yellow and Lady off Red.

TheLyth

Jane, now you have raised the point we will review and ensure something is built in to any future rules for Golfshake competitions.

Like The Lyth as said, think this is a can of worms  obviously all boils down to the use of SSS and therefore whether the course is deemed harder off a different set of tees.

Not to bring up the much debated UK golf handicap system but this also highlights the issue of SSS and issuing of club handicaps.  A club player could have a handicap of 10 from their home course which could be SSS74, thus a 10 handicapper from a visiting club with SSS65 is never going to be equal. 

I wonder how the US/Europe system stacks up with course ratings or if this is open to even further debate over true handicaps!  at least they base handicaps on averages of recent rounds rather than the dropping and 0.1 increase system. 

Regards, Darren.

A club player could have a handicap of 10 from their home course which could be SSS74, thus a 10 handicapper from a visiting club with SSS65 is never going to be equal. 

I am pleased that someone now agrees with me that the SSS does not do anything to make a level playing field, and the reason is because no handicap adjustment is made when playing away from ones home course.

Just to use an example from the course i played on Wednesday, on how sometimes a shorter hole is more dificult :

Par 5 at Rockliffe is an island green. Yellow tees are about 140 yards, but the line to the pin (barring the water) is straight with no obstacles in front.

Ladies tee was 124 yards, but tee was off to right and line of sight to the pin was over a massive bunker.

Which is the harder shot?

I know which one i'd prefer, and it certainly wasn't the reds

So this is why (certainly on this course) the ladies SSS is higher than the mens.

Thats a short par 5

hehe, error well spotted!

I did obviously mean Hole 5, which is a par 3 :-)

TheLyth

My point was a Lady with a handicap of 18 playing on a course from the Red tees which have an SSS of 73 would likely score less than a Gent (senior or therwise)  with handicap of 18 playing of a gents tee with SSS 70

The Red SSS has been caclulated based on previous Ladies results (possibly juniors, though I doubt that) playing of thier respective handicaps over a number of years. Like wise for the Gents SSS.

I have to agree with Darren & John that the US/EU method of adjustment based on the "SSS" (slope) of your home course versus the one you are playing is far more accurate for comps outside of a single club.

Graham

This is my point - using Grahams example, the lady has a two shot disadvantage before you even hit a ball, so an additional 2 shots to lady brings things to level playing field.

Have found this on the CONGU site :

'It could be argued (and is in one of the world's leading handicap systems) that a club running a competition without making the adjustment for any difference in the SSS's is introducing a Condition of Competition that is, at best outside the spirit of, and at worst contrary to, Rule of Golf 6.2 (which does not allow a player to declare a handicap higher than that to which they are entitled). The argument being that if an upward adjustment is not applied to the player on the harder course (higher SSS) those on the easier course are effectively playing off too high a handicap, contrary to Rule of Golf 6.2.'

Trying not to release the worms but i just started the post from a genuine lack of knowledge that was pointed out to me during the week, over a nice glass of red wine :-))

Graham,

First, Gents SSS is based on the total length of the course and a few changes are then made by the local Union if needed. The Club then works out a CSS for that days play.

You could argue (oops there's a worm) that to level the Playing Field a Gents SSS is needed for the Red Tees. This would change like this:-

HORSFORTH GC in Leeds

White Tees - 6258yds SSS70 Par 71

Yellow Tees - 5976yds SSS69 par 70

Ladies Tees - 5563yds SSS72 Par 72 would become a SSS67 Par 68

So what is the fairest way to even the differences? 

When you have a mixed Field things change and it is up to the Club how they deal with it. 

TheLyth

But CONGU has a specific page on mixed competitions, so surely the clubs should be following that??