SSS VS PAR

Maybe a stupid question but i will ask anyway.

 Is it possible for a course to have a SSS higher than its PAR?

Great topics on this in the past

SSS and Par difference

How is SSS, CSS and Par worked out 

Yep.  PGA National at the Belfry.  Of the yellows, par 70, SSS 71

I don't understand ?

If you assess a course in terms of it's PAR then the standard SSS must be less

which would be a standard re-assessment  off the yellow boxes 

and if it is not - and why the hell should it ? - then you have to re-assess the par for the course ?

I am a little confused here regarding the fact that a differential exists - in the opposite direction ? because if it does then WHY ?

I would love to know the reasoning for the SSS to be MORE than PAR 

Guys - reply with your greater knowledge regarding this particular aspect  ! because sure as eggs I don't know that's for sure !

See - http://www.congu.com/template2.asp?pid=32&parent=32 The factors that affect the effective playing length of a golf course are: Roll, Dogleg, Wind, Forced Lay-up and Elevation. The ten obstacle factors that determine the playing difficulty of a golf course are: Topography, Fairway, Green Target, Recoverability and Rough, Bunkers, Out of Bounds/Extreme Rough, Water Hazards, Trees, Green Surface and Psychological.

I am quite sure you will find that this mythical 15% bandied about for degree of difficulty, is exactly that - a myth. Golf course SSS has always been assessed predominantly by overall length and we have all witnessed its flaws. May I suggest trying to get to scratch at a course like Wimbledon Common, with the SSS 2 shots below the par and the CSS usually another shot off.

Low handicap players now look to where they play their golf because of the SSS stupidity.

I might also add that todays scratch players have it very easy in respect of the decimal system. That is why we have a dearth of plus golfers who are never going to be able to play the game professionally.

The game as it is played today is completely different from yesteryear. The ability to be able to play a variety of shots and shapes is no longer necessary. It is just crash, bang, wallop.

Because of this the game is now awash with mechanical robots all producing the same shot. Hazards are, for the pros, just ornaments, as their mechanical swings are so repetitive that they very rarely encounter them. Bunkers are in perfect condition so they don't mind going in them.

The Open showed that the modern way of playing was not suitable for St. Andrews, a little bit of flair, imagination and no mean ability with a golf club was what was required.

I can understand the principle of the SSS but unfortunately it does not work in practice, for the simple reason that if I go to a course where the SSS is much higher than mine then my handicap is not adjusted so that I am playing as an equal with those who have their handicap based there.

Colin,

The easiest way to explain the difference between SSS & Par is like this.

A 450yd hole could be an easy Par5 or long Par4 and a 250yd hole could be an easy Par4 or a long Par3. A Scratch player is deemed to be able to hit their Tee-shots 250yds and 2nd shots up to 200yds and that is how Par is generally worked out. But most golfers can now hit the ball further than those figures so you see them reaching Par 5's in two and knocking it onto short Par 4's so the SSS will be lower than Par. Other courses will have holes stretched to 470yd Par 4's and 260yd Par 3's and these you will find have a SSS over Par.

Now you take two Par 72 courses.

COURSE A has 10 Par 4's of 440yds, 4 Par 5's of 525yds and 4 Par 3's of 245yds (total length 7480yds) 

COURSE B has 10 Par 4's of 325yds, 4 Par 5's of 475yds and 4 Par 3's of 120yds (total length 5630yds)

Would you expect to score the same at both?

No, of course not, one course is 1850yds longer than the other and that is 7.6 shots of 250yds.

The basic SSS for each of these courses is, A 75 & B 67, which is 8 shots different (or 7.6 rounded up).

Hope this helped.

TheLyth

JP,

I still can't get your way of thinking?

"I can understand the principle of the SSS but unfortunately it does not work in practice, for the simple reason that if I go to a course where the SSS is much higher than mine then my handicap is not adjusted so that I am playing as an equal with those who have their handicap based there."

You say that your Hcp should be based on Par and not SSS. Two course with the same Par can differ by 4000yds, yet two courses of the same SSS should only differ by 200yds.

Now, Home Course Advantage, that is another topic.

TheLyth

To TheLyth

- explained perfectly ! Thanks ! 

Lyth, first of all a par 3 was any length up to 250 yards, a par four up to 475 yards and anything over that became a par five.

I used to ber able to hit par fives in 2 up to 529 yards with persimmons, now of course I cannot hit them in three.

No matter how one wishes to dress this up a 16 handicapper at Ganton is going to be a far superior player to a 16 handicapper at Sherfied.

Both your course A and course B are nowhere near what the majority of decent courses in this country are.

The higher the SSS the easier the course becomes.

JP,

I agree that the higher a SSS is, the easier it is to play to ones Hcp. Even more when you get to Cat 1 & 2 Hcp.

But to relate ones ability to Par can be even further off the mark.

I have never played The Wellington at Sherfield Oaks so can't comment on it, but I have played a lot at Ganton.

My "Target Score" at Sherfield would be 74(+2) and seeing 5 Par 4's under 340yds and a reachable Par5 (for me), I can relate to that. At Ganton my "Target Score" is 76(+4) and with it having 3 Par 4's under 340yds and two reachable Par 5's, I do see that it would be easier to play to my Hcp there. Just!

TheLyth

This is exactly what I am referrring to, Lyth. You have looked at the card and decided that on length you would do so and so. There is only one par four that would be within your capabilites, but even that one would mean you risking going into a ditch thirty yards in front off the green. As to the par five, I assume the seventh, then in all the time I have been a member I have never seen anyone hit this green for 2 shots or even attempt it with the large pond infront and to the left of it. The other par fives are completely unreachable in 2 shots because of ditches across the fairways so I would be interested to know which other one you think you could reach. as they are all in the 560 yard range, all with dirtches across and one very much uphill.

Having said that I find the Wellington a much easier course to score on than the Waterloo which is much shorter. In fact the back nine on the Waterloo is as good a nine as one will find anywhere to test ones abilities.

I mentioned Ganton as I have played it and I know you have so would appreciate its difficulties.

I have one spot available for our South West tour taking in Clevedon(One of my old clubs) Saunton and Westward Ho. August 24, 25 and 26. 2 nights B & B accomodation and four rounds of golf all for £189 if you are interested.

This is "you know who" (I suspect) This is he 'Who shall not be named'

I cannot imagine it would be Chris W who comes to me as OK

So just be carefull out there when you make comments without due thought

that's me talking and and I do not take disrespectfull comments because of one's personnel ego lightly !