Slow Play

Once again the subject raises its ugly head.For me I dont agree with most on this subject I have no problem with a round taking 5 hours if thats what you want for me the problem is etiquette there are times and courses where its nearly criminal to fly round as quick as you can there are some courses which are by no stretch of the imagination beautiful and lets face it there are some courses which are so expensive that you might not get the chance to play them again so please take your time and enjoy them but YOU MUST LET OTHER PEOPLE THROUGH there is no excuse for holding others up on the course and I MEAN NO EXCUSES

You are entitled to your opinion, Gary, but one I completely disagree with. Some of us like to play 36 holes in one day in comfort. I have no wish to be on a course for a five hour round.

Each course has its own speed, but anything over 4hrs is a little slow.

A round of Golf is usually 18holes and play should be continuous from the first to the last. If you want to stop to admire the surroundings, do so without playing. Once you leave the first Tee you should be aiming to complete the whole course without delay. The Rules of Golf state this. "WITHOUT DELAY" being mentioned in several Rules.

TheLyth

Thought you might John!  My boredom threshold for a round is about 4 1/2 hours, after that I start to get really jerked off - although I did play a 5 hour casual fourball on a beautiful sunny day on a very quiet course and loved it.  It's just the interminable waiting on the fairway that gets my back up..

I think Gary makes a very valid point though.  If you and your playing partners are happy with a round taking that long, as long as you play others through and don't hold them up, where's the problem?

The problem for me, Chris, is that I do not like going through people, as it tends to make one hurry, with the usual consequences.

Slow play could easily be eradicated if players were to return to the old way of playing this game, carry your clubs (I did till I had my heart attack at 62) as this is much quicker than a trolley will ever be. Cut down the time spent on a pre shot routine, Always be ready when it is your turn to play and don't stalk the ball on the putting surface. Finally walk at a pace that is brisk and not a stroll or an amble.

Anyone wishing to enjoy the sunshine and landscape can do so at their leisure away from a golf course.

To me there are two types of Slow Play.

One is caused by players acting in a slow manner as described by John above.

And

Two, the unavoidable concertina effect. A Club sets its Starting Times at a certain gap and play begins. A group loses a ball and calls the group behind through. When that second group has got clear, the first group has to slot back in so holding a third group up. This can happen a number of times so a lot of waiting.

TheLyth

Why do you need more than 4hrs to enjoy the scenery are you painting it. We all know that playing at a nice rythmic pace will produce better golf shots,standing around waiting never does .I would rather have played a good round of golf on an expensive stunning course than look at it. If you must take a photo of it, I agree some peoples etiquette stinks especially those who confuse rules with etiqutte.

They should be barred from your club, jonny, it appears they lack common sense, even though I agree with the local rule in principle.

Show them the R&A rulebook Jonny.  Singles have the same standing on the course as any other group.  And a smaller group who are being held up should be played through if they would be quicker than the group in front. 

I know some don't agree with singles having standing and I don't think they should have automatic right of way.  But if a group is behind pace of play and there is a single being held up behind them they should play him through

Careful with that one Chris. I think the R&A make it a recomendation and some Courses/Clubs will not allow a single player any 'standing'.

Try booking a Time as a single at the week-end and see what happens.

TheLyth

Martin,

What was going on in front of this 31/2hr guy?

I don't take too kindly to a group getting up my too close behind when we are playing a the speed of the course. In other words when we are "holding station". I play at the speed of the groups in front and don't get too close that I could put them off their game. This is called 'Pace of Play'.

I think it is wrong to think that if you CAN get round inside 3hrs you should always get round inside 3hrs, even if the course is busy or not.

TheLyth

Martin,

So you will appreciate. The Golfer who sets off from his Southend home expecting to drive the 222miles to Leeds inside 3hrs will be upset when after those 3hrs has still not reached Sheffield. After all at 70mph he should be only 12miles short of Leeds.

TheLyth

I want to agree with Gary initial point, there are some courses you can bomb around and others that take more care and attention, if you let people play through then i don't see an issue, as long as you accept that they shouldn't feel rushed to get past your group.  when i'm out there i want to play at the pace thats gonna get me scoring well so my attitude is "a bad day golfing is better than a good day working"

As ever it gets people going I like to play at a good pace myself what im saying is i can understand people who do take longer for a round all I ask is they dont interupt the pace of play but as some have pointed out this isnt easy when clubs t times are so close together and as others have said some courses just cant be played slow because of the set up.At the same time again like some have mentioned I have no time for people who harrass the group in front the classic prowling the t or the fairway giving you a look that says dont you realise who i am.My favourite time of year is approaching I like winter golf generally there seems to be fewer people about and the cost of playing the best courses in the area such as formby and Hillside becomes very reasonable and slow play never seems to be a problem well nobody wants to hang arond on Hillside when its blowing a gale

Gary, you are indeed fortunate to live in an area with so many fine courses at your disposal. All private well established clubs like these, never have problems with the speed of play, as the members understand the traditions of the game and follow them to the letter.

It is a blessing John although i might disagree about some of the members of these clubs and there following of tradition but in the main yes I have found them excellent I wonder how many people out there take advantage of these courses in winter and the reduced rates or are people still put off by what they think they are going to find when they get there Just to let people know private courses in my experience have totally changed there attitude to visitors and apart from one I can think of you will be made most welcome

If only that were true John.  I've been held up at several private 'well established clubs', once by two old gents in a two ball who obviously, and quite vociferously at times, disagreed with the policy of allowing visitors to play (I was with a long standing member at the time).

Would you name that club, Tim.

Sorry, John that would be telling.  All I can say that it was a 'Royal' course on the East Coast - near a popular seaside resort.  

I find ultra fast players as annoying slow players.  There is one particular species that really irks.  Youngish fully fit players that bomb round courses using a buggy and hitting the ball miles without regard as to whether the group in front are out of range.  Anyone else encountered this problem.

I think that a player(s) handicap(s) also have a bearing on how long the round will take.

2 single figure guys will always finish well ahead of 2 20+ guys as the single figure players are taking less shots.

I played last night with another member & we teed off at 2:30, we were back in our cars by 5:20. We weren't sprinting but just playing fairways, greens, & putting out.

As Wayne would say....simples!

John, would kind of disagree with the above in terms of SFGs and high handicappers. 

In general you are correct but I have seen low handicappers pace yardages out, line putts up from 3 angles which increases the time regardless of the fewer shots

Darren,

In fairness though it's probably took them less shots to reach the green so there not taking anymore time really. Also they probably won't have to spend as much time looking for lost balls or playing provisional shots etc.

I'm going on personal experience. My rounds when played with high handicappers generally take longer than those with single figures.

I agree Jonny, I wasn't discriminating just giving my personal view.

How come the pro's don't whizz round then?

JP I am sure you and John are right and I wouldn't argue with the fact  that the average time to complete a round for a mid twenties handicapper is probably above the average for single handicappers.  However course speed is so much more than how many. 

I often complete rounds under three hours on a Monday afternoon playing in a two ball with a player who is not even good enough to have a 28 handicap.  We both hit the ball straight but not very far. 

I have also played the odd round with a low handicapper where I have been tearing my hair out as he paces around the fairways, taking innumeracle practice swings and lining up three foot putts  from so many angles that I am surprised he is not dizzy by the time he comes to putt.

The worst thing that holds up play is the Fourball that don't watch each other. A guy hits his ball into the rough and the other three were talking about the football last night so have no idea where it went and the guy was "keeping his head down" so he hasn't a clue either.

* insert what ever you think fits.

TheLyth

hi guys,

what i find shocking is golf courses that still allow golfers to wear jeans!!! that really winds me up!

i played sunday at abbey hill in milton keynes......5hr 15 mins to get round.....overbooked golf course!

I agree slow play is a real nuisance someone lining up a put from 15 angles only to leave it 6 foot short really gets my goat and I agree with Dave Ley keeping a good speed keeps your rythym and tempo going and stopping and starting throws me right off but i do sometimes think some of the better players forget they were once beginners to.

If 2 25+ handicappers playing on anormal day take an average of say 98 shots that means they have about 45 seconds per shot to do it in 2.5hrs. That does not include looking for lost balls walking between tee's, club selection lining up a puts and waiting for other people around to play there shots.

Here is some interesting Number Crunching.

A 2 Ball, both off scratch playing a 7000yd par 72 course. Both play well and shoot level. They walk at an average speed, hit 100% FIR and 100% GIR. The longest putt holed during the round was inside 9". Once one player has hit, the other is ready to play. Almost a perfect game. How long should that take 1.5hrs? 2hrs? No, it would take 2.75hrs.

How did I get here.

A man walks at 3mph on average. The course is 7000yds and allowing 50yds extra per hole that is 7900yds @ 5280y.p.h = 1.5hrs

Each shot that the players hit took 35sec, 10s for club selection - 15s to set & hit - 10s ball flight. They hit 108 such shots so = 63min.

Each 'Tap-in', the putts from inside 9" adds 10sec to the time = 6min

Allow 10sec per tee for them to settle upon their arrival there = 3min

That gives a total of 162min or 2hr 42min.

TheLyth

Lyth,

Where did the 108 shots come from?

John.

John,

They actually hit two 72's which is 144 shots but 36 of those shots were the Tap-Ins which were calculated at only 10sec not 35sec.

I know that giving a Scratch Golfer only 35sec to hit their first putt is unrealistic, should be at least double that?

TheLyth

Interesting insight into slow play at the weekend at Retford. We were told just before we teed off that a couple of the clubs matchplay finals were going to be right behind us, and to look out for them.  Not a problem.  The first match was the open foursomes who closed in on us pretty quickly, they got to the 3rd (par 3) tee as we were on the green - we dutifully marked our balls and let them play through - as it happened one ball went in the trees so we helped look for it for the statutory 5 mins and the hole was conceded.  When we putted out they had almost cleared the next tee so were ripping alone at quite a pace.  The next group up were the junior singles match play, who despite starting just after the first comp didn't get near us until 3 holes later!  We were again all on the green at the 6th as they teed off, so we duly marked balls and waited for them to go through.  And waited.  And waited.  The pair of them meandered up the fairway, eventually played 2nd shots, one in the greenside bunker and another in the rough about 50yds short.  The first lad's ball was easily found in the light rough, where he proceeded to wander round and pick up a couple of lost balls, a couple of minutes staring at his clubs, a few practice swings, changed club, a few more practice swings and then played.  The second lad only then went up to his ball in the bunker, walked round a bit, did the same club staring session and practice swings and eventually played his shot.  They then proceeded to stalk all round the pin, eyeing up lines and eventually got round to putting.  One of them had a bit of a practice put and off they went to the next tee.  We putted out slowly, got to the next tee and they still hadn't tee'd off yet!

At a conservative estimate, the senior foursomes probably delayed us 6 minutes because of the lost ball, but for the juniors it was more like 20 minutes.  Interestingly, the foursomes were all carrying, but the juniors both had powered trolleys.....  

all this talk about slow play is very interesting

a question that hasnt really popped up is

Do you think the slow play is due to the money grabbing courses who only allow 6mins between tee times?

now this may be suitable for 2players but when you think that 3 or 4 players are mostly playing then thats where the trouble starts, without getting into arguments over sfg's and higher handicap players, but most times not all 4 players are straight down the middle of the fairway off the tee and if just 1 player hits into the rough and as in tims previous post "takes the mandatory 5 mins to look for his ball" the you are going to definately have problems

my next question really answers itself

Why dont clubs allow for longer periods between tee times i.e 10/12 mins?

simple - they dont get as much revenue!!

so in my opinion whilst you do get some players who play slower than others it is mainly the individual clubs fault for slow play because they are trying to pack as many people onto the course to get as much revenue as they can.

 We ( a two ball) were playing at Holins Hall last Sun. It was busy and were booked at two o'clock. I was surprised that they had a bloke looking after the first tee: He gave us a lift up to the first tee in order that we could get off before a society (I think the booking with online teetimes was not fed through or the proshop ignored it) which was good of them and also was surprised at the readiness of fourballs to let us through.

 It's times like that that your faith in humankind is restored.

The good news Dave is you averaged 4.5 per hole for 15 holes and if you carried on the way you were playing and beat the dark you may have had an 82.

i think a lot of slow play is lost on the tee, i have with my 4 ball waited for the green to empty and then played only to find that while we are putting out the 4 ball in front are still marking thier cards or chatting on the next tee if the 1st player went straight to the tee and tee's off while the others mark up it would quicken the game up, just waiting 60 seconds before you tee off is 18 minutes added to your game............