stoke albany

 stoke albany 3rd place was won on defaut on the 9 tee the players ball went into some trees on the right of fairway he took asecoud ball  but found his first play it then hit it into some trees and could not find itso played second ball and scored points with it went he should have been desquifed and also Ihad nearist the pin nobody had a ball on the green

If you nwitnessed this, Ray, the you yourself should have raised the issue with the player concerned at the time this incident happened. By not doing so you yourself have broken the rules of golf by allowing a rule to be broken by this player.

I might add that to bring this up after the event is pretty poor, as you have now condemned a certain player to possible repercussions when he plays again, without being able to defend himself from any accusations that come his way.

What was the outcome , then. You obviously condoned his actions or he would not have been awarded third place.

This is the problem with high handicappers not reading the rules of golf.

If he was awarded third place then you certainly did not sort it out in the clubhouse.

You cannot agree to waive a rule of golf or you are both disqualified.

I am sorry, Robin, but Ray has no defence whatsoever. He should have made the correct decision at the time of the infringement by politely pointing out the error of his fellow competitor, recording a blob (I assume you were playing stableford) and then moving to the next tee.

I know it is not always pleasant to have to be firm with ones playing partners where the rules are concerned, but it was his duty, as he was marking the card, to see that it was done according to the rules of golf.

Even if he was not marking the card of the player concerned he should have still broached the subject at the time of the offence, not afterwards and most certainly not in open forum for all the competitors to see.

The thing to have done when it was decided to leave it until you reached the Clubhouse was to confirm with the guys Marker that he would not sign the Card until it was resolved one way or the other.

Or are the scores accepted without signatures?

We had a similar thing at Newbold in last years HHC, but I believe it was handled in the correct way.  Cliff Dadds pushed his putt and hit Calrton's ball when both were on the green.  I knew the rule (penalty to Cliff, Carlton replaces his ball in the original position) but didn't know what the penalty was.  We agreed that Cliff's card would be marked with his number of strokes, we would get a ruling from the pro after the game and we would then update Cliff's card to include the appropriate penalty. 

If ever there is disagreement, play two balls and record both scores then get a ruling when you get back in and include the correct score on the card.  With regards to the decision to award the nearest the pin prize to someone else because the winner wasn't there, Martin you owe Ray a prize if he indeed won it fair and square.  You can't make an executive decision to strip someone of their prize just because they are not around (I know Ray often has to leave immediately due to work commitments). 

In fairness, this is the sixth or seventh of these comps and there have never been any problems before (despite the first one being won by a bloody sombreo wearing BANDIT; 46 points, I thought I had it in the bag with 41!!!).  I think that this is likely to be a one-off and as long as disagreements are referred to the Pro for a ruling I'm sure there won't be any further issues. 

I carry a copy of the rules with me and occaisionally they have had to come out. 

I believe you should read and know the rules because you can use them to your advantage and this is how the pro's seem to get some many bizarre allowances.  I had a good example a couple of weeks ago. 

We were playing a local muni.  The course has a small pond at the left of the second which the council put a fence around lat year for safety reasons.  I hooked off the tee and rolled under the fence, but my ball was between the line of the stakes and the fence.  I pulled my ball out and took a free drop, arguing that I wasn't in the hazard but the fence would interfere with my swing.  Within the rules and not cheating, but I got away with a bad shot (Messers Williams and Johnson weren't impressed though!)

So far i have refrained from commenting on this (per my blog HHC 2009) but as Ray has decided to go public with his views i will reciprocate.

There are many ways of settling disputes but standing up in a public bar with non-involved people present and vociferally accusing someone of being a cheat in my book is not one of them. I will refrain from the expletives. I agree with other comments here that the problem should of been resolved as it happened on the course but  having agreed to confer with the club pro at the end of the round this should of taken place. Neither Carlton or myself was made aware of any incident and there was a good 20 minute delay whilst the cards/scores were checked. In fact Ray you even sat next to Carlton during this period whilst he collated the scores and never uttered a word.No, you waited until the results were read out, this was after ALREADY RECEIVING your NP award (a fact you conveniently forgot to mention), before kicking-off.You never gave my colleague a chance to answer or resolve the problem before throwing your trophy back onto the table adding that you never wanted to play with us bunch of cheats ever again and storming off out.

You Ray may find that sort of behaviour accceptable, i don't, and i personally feel it has no place at any event let alone an organised golf day. I have always found these tournaments to be played in a relaxed, fun but competitive manner(something that those who know me will verify i try and encourage)and knowing Adrian as i do any mistake/penalty by him would of been accepted i'm sure in the same manner. However winning seems paramount to you Ray so i am quite willing to purchase another trophy out of my own pocket and deliver it personally, i leave the rest to yours and everyone else's imagination. Having left Carlton in such an embarassing position i think he was quite justified in awarding the NP to the next player who did actually find the green.

Finally before you question anyone else's integrity i suggest you take a long hard look at yourself, as i am not afraid to say what others think, because for someone who claims to know the rules of the game/etiquette your interpretation leaves a lot to be desired, and as for not wanting to play with us again well i for one will not be shedding any tears.

Apologies to other members but i take it personally when i spend a lot of time and effort in organising an event only to have it marred by the antics of one individual who can't even be bothered to portray the correct scenario, and yes i did swallow a dictionary today.

I too have been through the pain and suffering of organising events (two in fact) so I feel for you Cliff.  Mine went off quite well, which was a relief, but I know I would feel the same as you should something like this happen.  It's not limited to the HHC's though, as there were several rulings refered to the pro in the N v S, the result of one even changing the outcome of a match.  I even had a heated debate with John Pettitt about where I should take a drop, even getting the rule book out, and I play with him socially!  Competition can bring out the worst in people. 

I believe that, theory, Adrian should be disqualified for signing for an incorrect card.  This happend to the first day leader at the Irish Open last week so you are in good company Adrian - even pro's do it!  However it appears an honest mistake was made after an agreement to get a ruling from the pro after the round (the correct route forward) was overlooked.  Mistakes happen and I bet that anyone who played in this comp will not make a similar mistake again. 

In light of new details re nearest the pin, Martin I retract my statement and believe that Carlton did what was right.

i have been trying to put my point of view but the system wont allow me

would the player in question refrain from calling other players cheats at comps as to try and belittle them this not acceptable and i wont stand for his remark rules of golf think back to tamworth when you allowed your grandson to drive a buggy all over the course teeing off and almost hitting myself and andy at stoke abbey the rules do state do not tee off until group in front is out of range

p.s thanks for a great day out and looking forward to the next one

l say Andrew old boy, whats been going on then. Hitting wrong balls, turning blind eyes, marking wrong cards. Whats new....................... What l can see and what i've been told, members need to read the rules of golf. Happy golfing Andrew.