BANDITS

I don't how anybody else feels about this subject but who needs them.

I once played a round and was giving away 18 stokes to a guy. I was 1 under through 12 holes and playing steady golf nothing special, but was 6 down. I mean the saying you are only cheating yourself doesn't cover it. Why do it, is it to win vouchers or competitions i don't know. He started with 4 pars playing off a handicap of 24.

I am normally a good sportsman, well sometimes but that really gets to me.

Perhaps he was just having a good day?

Sorry Matt if you can go on a run of 5 holes in level or 1 under you have the wrong handicap. Not unless you are scoring plenty of double bogies because anything over that goes back to a double.

Think we will agree to disagree.

Why would he be off the wrong handicap?

His stats show that for example the last round he played he had 8 holes at par. If he falls apart the rest of the game, he has to work at it - his handicap is what he goes round in, not what you play half a round in Martin.

Dennis

I have been playing golf a long time now and in my experience in golf i have never seen a 17 handicaper shoot 1 under in a five hole period, He would have to have had a nightmare at the rest of the holes.

If you are playing well it is very doubtfull that the rest of your holes are so bad.

Fair enough - he is cheating then......

Hi Paul

I realise that anyone can have a good round but i am trying to be realistic on what abilities my opponent has. There are exceptions of course, maybe someone is having the round of their life and good on them but 1 under in a 5 hole stretch doesn't cut it with me. Well not at that handicap.

Dave

I really don't mind if someone is playing well below their handicap but there has to be common sense aswell.

Like Matt said if i am playing well that's all that matters and that very true. That is all i am bothered about. If a person beats me through playing better that's fine, however if a person comes in with a net score of 59 there is a problem. Surely you must agree

Nice one Paul if only it was that simple.

Philip

In stroke play your 7s 9s and 10s get knocked back to double bogies hence the reason i was making my point. These scores don't count.

I don't think i am making the correct points here as so many people are disagreeing.

I see your point Martin and agree that there are cheats out there.  I have three signed cards to submit for my new club handicap but I won't put them in because I know that I will be given a 28 handicap.  This isn't snobbery on my part, I just know that if I put them in I would be cheating as I'm not a 28 handicapper.  I agree that something should be done if they consistently have the 'game of their life' every time there is a comp on.  Once is fine, twice is pushing it, three times and they should be disqualified and banned from the comps for a year. 

There is the flip side though.  I played at Sherfield Oaks earlier this year for the first time.  I carded 8 pars and 1 birdie, by far the best return I've ever had.  Unfortunately I dropped 19 shots on the other 9 holes, giving me a card of 87.  Yes I played inside my handicap (40 pts); yes I could (and probably should) have done better; no I'm not a bandit.  For those of us in the low 20's, it's the bad holes between the good ones that make us the handicap we are.  We're not that far away from mid to low teens, we just lack the consistency and we will occaisionally get it right and have a good game. 

And I agree that the guy you were playing was more than likely extracting the urine. 

Chris

Off scratch i have shot some low scores like 6 or 7 under.

If that's the case i have no problem but on a par 72 they are going to 12 under.

Like i said everybody can have a super day but like you said you can tell who is surprised by their score.

Agreed Martin. 

There are these people at every club and everyone knows who they are.  The problem is that the system does not allow it to be addressed in its current state.  The club can take action, but in the current climate they do not want to alienate members in case they leave.  All we as players can do is raise a stink wwhenever their name and handicap is on the list. 

At least you haven't had it as bad as Dave Ley has at his club.  He posted some results a couple of months back when 5 players came in with over 50 points and another 24 with over 40!

High handicappers can have a blow up that could happen on any of the 18 holes and still play to their Hcp. If they don't have a blow up, they could come in with 40+ pts without any problem.

The real Bandits are the ones that refuse to play Medal & Stablefords in their Club and if they do always seem to finish badly to play to their Hcp. Then they go away and win Fourball Open days.

Matt

I can not beleive you can think like that although it depends on how often you have 5 pars in a row.

If you do it on a regular basis then yes you are a bandit and should learn course management because even in county golf 1 under in concession through 5 holes is good golf.

Chrısö

You should submıt your 3 cards because you obvıousley have been playıng to 28 around the belfryç You can always revert to your GS handıcap for other events but ıf playıng ın a comp at the belfry use your club handıcap

In my eyes there are "Bandits" and "Cheats".

"Cheats" are the ones that keep their Hcp artificially high in order to gain an advantage. I am afraid that the present Hcp system helps them.

"Bandits" are those that have or have had the ability to score lower than they normally do. Then on some days everything clicks and in comes a low score.

I have been called a Bandit because of my past. I would think that John Pettitt has also had this from his old friends when they hear his Hcp is now 16.

A guy who joins a Club (par 72 SSS 72) and gets a Hcp of 21 and then doesn't play Comps but has Lessons and practices for a while, then shoots an 80, Nett 59 in a Comp. This drops his Hcp to 17.1 and he then shoots another 80 = Nett 63. This gives him a 14.4 Hcp. Another 80 gives him a Nett 66 so a 'Pull' to 12.6. He has now got the name of "Bandit" but its not his fault. If he now improves with his lessons and practice its a long time before his Hcp catches up with his ability.

Matt

I understand what you are saying but you are missing my point.

All i am saying is in 20 years of playing golf i have never seen a 17 handicaper go 1 under in a five hole stretch so no you have not proven your point.

Maybe you are a one and only i don't know. I would like to see it though so i could be proven wrong. If you say that's the way you play, who am i to argue just never seen anyone play that way, thats all.

Martin,

What would you say to a 24Hcp shooting a 72 (+2)Gross round a Par70 SSS66 course.

It was done at Roundhay GC in a Leeds Municipal Event. Mind you I have shot Sub 40 rounds over that 9 Holer, playing One-Handed.

For a 17Hcp to shot -1 over 5 holes at a course like Roundhay is believable but to do it on a course like, say Moortown, not that is completely a different story.

I don't know the golf courses David but a 24 handicaper shooting 2 over is a cheat.

Not unless this is a trick question

I'm similar to Matt in that I can have a stretch of 3 sometimes 4 holes at par and often get the odd birdie but struggle to keep it together for a whole round. The good stretches are when I avoid bunkers and get my approach shots fairly close. Left with a green side bunker and I'm shafted 7/10 times, putting from 25 feet + usually results in a 3 putt (at least I know where I need to improve!). I often get labelled a bandit - although I have never actually won any events (or come very close for that matter). I am playing every game at the moment with the intent of shooting low to reduce my handicap, what annoys me is how handicaps are based off SSS and the courses I play have 2-4 shots less on SSS than par which means in order to get cut by 1 or 2 shots I literraly have to shoot something like 10 over (which could well mean a long par/sub par run). eg I shot 86 the other day at Styrrup which is 14 over and I get rewarded with a measley 0.3 cut. Hopefully Martin the guy you were playing with did get a decent cut and was more happy with that than winning. If not, then by all means call him a bandit

Martin,

The 72 was a 1 off, but I HAVE shot 56 Gross round Roundhay (31- 25), its that type of course.

Hit Driver once, 3wood 3x's and you can knock it on the others with an Iron. That is for 9 holes. Any Golfers from 15Hcp down is capable of shooting level there.

Matt....and also have the concentration span of a gnat.

Glad to see everyone agree's with me on this thread

Think i will just shut up now

I think what Martin is attempting to get at is that every player is capable of doing a hole in bogey, there fore if a 16 handicapper has four pars and a birdie on the bounce then his handicap ability is way below 16. I would probably say nearer to 12.

In another thread there has been comment about Mike Hobden playing off a false handicap, yet he did not play to it during the competition yesterday at Sherfield, yetat this subject was raised and voiced fairly stringly. The reason being then when you see him strike a ball as consistent as he does then his handicap does look rather high and is the reason he wins so many roll-up at our club.

Here's a run i had about 6-7yrs ago playing off 12 ish.The course is Langland Bay in Swansea it's a hilltop course on the Gower coast but not a links. I had a run of 4 birdies 14-17, 5 putts in total the longest 25ft, it should have been 5 but missed a 2 1/2 footer on the par 3 13 (unlucky for some).Finished with 43pts I think,didn't receive the Bandit title as they all new me well ,only managed 3 on a run since 4 or 5 times.

  All I can add is that the bandits know who they are. It's not a 'jack the lad' thing to be and one by one people will stop playing with you if money is involved. You're fooling no one. If money's not involved then what you're doing is even more sad...there's nothing wrong with losing.

We played the first Major of the year at our club at the weekend, Rob and myself were out with another chap in a 3 ball and his brother was out with a 28 capper teeing off behind us, by the 12th hole (where the fairways run side by side) his brother informed us that the 28 capper was 10 under net  on his round scoring, believe it or not, 5 pars on the first 5 holes, including a long par 5 on in 2. 

Call me what you will but this is plain cheating, but he eventually came in with a net 75, even allowing for the mini blow up at the end Im just not wearing it.

I know off 19 I have a Bandit round in me. And I'll be thrilled when I finally play it.

I finally had mine yesterday scoring 44 pts and got my self cut nearly 2 shots

Funnily enough I played 5 holes in 1 under.

The reason I finally managed to post a score was quite simple...I actually kept out of trouble and for the first time in....well possibly ever, played 18 holes with the same ball.

The guy Tony is on about was dressed like Ian Poulter and insisted on throwing 4 pieces of grass in the air to see wind direction before numerous practice swings and that sort of look how good I am walk..

Its not that difficult to see which way the wind is blowing on our course..The trees tend to point that way...

Pink and white, I ask ya. Fair do's for the North v South but in real life....

"He may well have 5 sub 36 point rounds in a row now, but his handicap will still be 1 shot less than before College Pines."

lol - you're probably right....but although I will most likely put the score on GS, if it's going to push the handicap up i uncheck the handicapping option (just like to keep a record of my scores) so the only thing my handicap will do is decrease (on a good round) or stay the same (on a pants round).

"If you shot 40 odd points, your handicap will come down rapidly, lets say by 3 shots"

- only if the SSS was about level with par. If the par is 72 and the SSS is 68 one could shoot 40 points and their handicap would barely change. Personally I don't think this is right. I played to 9 over par last night and if the SSS was 73 (level with par) I would have been cut 2.5 (it's 70 at CP) ... which in reality is still not much. The way current cuts work I would need to shoot 9 over par at College Pines two more times before getting to a hc of 12 ish at which point I would never be able to get my handicap cut without shooting 81 or less. So this means somebody off 12 could shoot 39-40 points continuously and never get cut which again I think needs addressing somehow. Sorry if this has gone a little off topic btw Martin.

Your last sentence, Chris, only confirms what I have been saying for many years. The SSS system does not work and should be abolished.

couldn't agree more.

Web based Hcp's can only be a guide. This is because it all comes down to what is imputted by the individual. There are many "BANDITS" with society Hcp's because of this. (Just look at The Virtual Leader Board).

When you join a Club and gain an "Official Hcp" it is harder to keep an artificially high Hcp. A NR only gives you 0.1 back and then you have to post a number of scores on holes to achieve that.

I disagree with John Pettitt and everyone else about basing Hcp's on Par rather than SSS because of the massive difference in distances foe Par. I had this discussion many years ago and we came to the conclusion that SSS was better than Par (but not perfect) on which to base ones Hcp. My reason is simple, you can have a 5400yd (SSS 66) course and a 8400yd (SSS 76) course, both as Par 72's and so a 76 at either course gives you a 4 Hcp? against either 10 or Scratch.

John, could you reach a 285yd par 4 in two? Yes I believe, but can you reach a 470yd par 4 in two? No, but you would have the same Hcp as a guy who can if you played on different courses but shot the same scores.

The US Hcp system is based on Par but it has Slope and Differentals added in and you end up with different Hcp's on different courses. Plus every round played is entered for Hcp.  

I disagree with John Pettitt and everyone else about basing Hcp's on Par rather than SSS because of the massive difference in distances foe Par. I had this discussion many years ago and we came to the conclusion that SSS was better than Par (but not perfect) on which to base ones Hcp. My reason is simple, you can have a 5400yd (SSS 66) course and a 8400yd (SSS 76) course, both as Par 72's and so a 76 at either course gives you a 4 Hcp? against either 10 or Scratch.

John, could you reach a 285yd par 4 in two? Yes I believe, but can you reach a 470yd par 4 in two? No, but you would have the same Hcp as a guy who can if you played on different courses but shot the same scores.

I disagree, David L, as you have quoted absolute extremes which I have never come across whilst playing this game. Yes, there are courses that are very long but the they are normally played off the yellow tees. I think you would find it most unlikely that a course would have a par of 72 being only 5400 yards in length.

Can I reach a 470 yard hole in two? Now I cannot, but of course when I was younger, par fours were up to 475 yards and I had no trouble hitting them in 2 shots as I had no trouble in hitting par fives of the then average of 525 yards in two shots also. Now of course I cannot hit a par five in three shots so the par for me personally really should be a par six, but it isn't, is it?

We cannot set a par for a hole to suit the capabilitiues of those of us who are limited in power, how on earth would we be able to play together fairly.

Par is what we strive to play to and should not have to be subject to, in most cases, having an SS way under the par just to satisfy those who play on monsters of courses and are young enough to be able to power their way round. Golf used to be a game of skill, which is now being redfuced to a game where length is the most important aspect.

Let me say to you now, David, being a golfer of some repute, that if I were to play off your drives then you would have considerabe difficulty in beating me, even now at my age.

The SSS, whilst you may think it offers a true standard of ones play does not provide for the person who plays on a short course having his handicap raised when he plays a longer course. Everyone has to play to par, just as you have always done as a pro.

I could well be wrong, but as SSS is primarily based off course length on a short course with say a few sub or circa 300 yard par 4's (Sitwell Park & Rother Valley in Rotheham immediately spring to mind) you are being expected to make a 3. This probably favours the low handicapper (short or long hitter) but severly punishes the mid/high handicapper. Most of the guys I play with in the 12-28 handicap range have little difficulty hitting a drive plenty over 200 yards but faced with less than 100 yards to the flag how many will get down in 2? The short game is the problem area for many higher handicappers (myself especially included here) and the short courses are likely to be just as difficult as the long ones relative to par (not counting extremely long/short courses). If two courses had par 72, Relative to SSS I think I would score better on a SSS 72 than a SSS 68. Whilst relative to par - probably about the same on both.

This is of course completely invalid for courses that are extremely long based on long par 3's of 200 yards or more......but how many of us are faced with these very often?

So in summary for extreme (long or short length) courses, if you play of the whites then SSS has validity, but for the average 5700-6400 18 holer off the yellows are the shorter courses really 4 or 5 shots easier for the average Joe mid to higher handicapper? I personally don't think so and I think it is a good reason why there are many bogey golfers stuck on an 18ish handicap who could turn up to a competition on a longer course and easily shoot 5 or 6 shots better than their handicap without necesarily playing out of their skin and get labelled a bit unfairly a bandit. So back on Martin's original points could a 24 hc shoot level par for 4 holes? Yes I think they could - well actually I know they could as I came back to the game off 23 and could do it....and rightly so my hc tumbled quite quick. I got stuck on 20 and after being labelled a bandit continuosly decided to set my handicap lower to 17. It's only over the last few weeks where I have been playing longer courses of sss 70+ where I have managed to lower my hc as these courses put less emphasis on my short game (which is pants compared to my long). Somebody like John P with a strong short game may possibly score better on short courses, but may well struggle to lower their handicap if the SSS is way below par (John?).

I guess what I am basically saying is that in order to lower ones handicap you have to (usually) play so well compared to your current handicap (and I'm talking 5 or 6 shots better) that you cannot do it without the cries of "Bandit".

'tis a funny old game.

Here is a 9 Hole Course

1. 259yds Par 4

2. 466yds Par 4

3. 174yds Par 3

4. 439yds Par 4

5. 324yds Par 4

6. 282yds Par 4

7. 114yds Par 3

8. 254yds Par 4

9. 271yds Par 4

2583yds Par 34 = 5166yds Par 68 SSS 65.

Yes, its Roundhay GC off the everyday RED Tees.

Anyone under 5 Hcp should be able to reach 6,8 & 9, so a possible six chances of two putt birdies in 18 Holes. If someone shot a number of 68's so was scratch, then went up the road to Moor Allerton and was expected to shoot 71's they wouldn't.

Or to put it another way.

A low Hcp'er confronted by either a 282yd Par 4, or a 482yd Par 5 should be looking at both as BIRDIE HOLES. While the higher Hcp'ers will be looking at them as possible PAR HOLES.

 Knowing both courses that David L mentions, his point is valid and you wont get a better example. Simply looking at a scorecard then basing your point to that is too simplistic. There sre no easy birdies to be had at Moor Allerton, don't be fooled by the distances. To be in with a chance of getting on in two on holes 5 & 14 requires two very good accurate drives (unless your happy with carrying 200 + with your second).

Posted by Chris B:

Somebody like John P with a strong short game may possibly score better on short courses, but may well struggle to lower their handicap if the SSS is way below par (John?).

Wimbledon Common, second oldest golf course in this country is a perfect example of this, Chris.

Located in the heart of Wimbledon Common, Wimbledon Common Golf Club offers a beautiful and distinctive 18 hole course with tree-lined fairways on land that has remained undisturbed for centuries.  The course is not long (5438 yards) which makes it ideal for newcomers and those who struggle to hit a long ball; but its tight demanding design makes it a great challenge for players of all abilities. At our recent Centenary Pro-Am, only two professional golfers broke our par of 68.

Scorecard here:

http://www.wcgc.co.uk/index.lasso?pg=20d5d81eef6e1bdb&cl=1&catid=640b6c6b44e29bba&mp=4b3b839bebb03fab&a
mp;-session=ldcms:4E92565B0cbf119862ygIl2D74D8

You will notice that there are three par threes well over 200 yards and they are so narrow you will not believe it. The SSS is 66 and the CSS used to quite often go below this, so it was not a course that the low handicapper, like myself at the time, was able to reduce handicap.

My question regarding SSS is"How is ones handicap adjusted to to take in the difference between the SSS's of two different clurses when one plays at another course other than their own that has a higher SSS.

NOTHING is my experience and that is what makes a mockery of the whole system.

Patrick,

What about the Lakes on 5 & 14, the Ditches on 3 & 16 and of course the BushesGorse on 6.

Matt,

It doesn't matter if its a Championship or Municipal Course the Rules about SSS are the same. 6800yds is 72 (just) and 6200yds is 69 (just). When you are a Member of a Club and enter a Comp CCS comes into play and that adjusts with the conditions of the course.

John P,

Thats my point, have a Hcp of 10 on your "Home" course (SSS 68 - Par 70) and go and play at a course (SSS 72 - Par 72) and you can drop FOUR extra shots to Par, as against only TWO  if Hcp's were based on Par.

I must be stupid, David as I don't understand your point at all.

Just thought of something that also affects ones handicap. As the majority of competitions being played are stableford, they should not be used for handicapping purposes as every hole is usually not completed in most cases. Also the scoring is against the par of the course and not the SSS.

Only medal rounds should be used.

How many times have you heard from a player that he has scored 36 points(Which is to his handicap) announcing that he had three blobs in that score, so in reality he has played at least  six under his handicap, but will not be cut.

Either the player is playing stableford or a medal, the two should never be combined.

John,

Todays Hcp System is based on Stableford and all BIG scores are adjusted to a set number. A 9 on a Par 4 is adjusted down according to the players Hcp.

36pts in a Stableford is not Par for the course unless CSS = Par. If a Par 72 gets a CSS of 68 then 40pts is Par.

John,

SSS gives us an idea as to the toughness of a course. A SSS of 74 shows us that that course is a lot harder than a SSS 68 even though it is possible that they both have the same Par.

Your Hcp of 16 means that in order to play to it, you should shoot 81 (+13) at Roundhay but then travel up to Moor Allerton and you can shoot 88 (+17) in order to play to it. This means that if you play according to Pars, you can drop FOUR more shots at Moor Allerton. I think that you would shoot nearer 75 at Roundhay and 95 at Moor Allerton though.

If a Player had a 16 Hcp at Moor Allerton and came down to Roundhay he would find the course easier but would also have to drop FOUR fewer shots to Par than at "home".

I think that you still relate more "TO PAR" than "TO SSS" which I admit I do too. I aim at Level Par on any course I play whatever the SSS is. That is our Target, how close to Par can we get and not How close can we play to our Hcp.

 David, my point exactly, hence my ref to accuracy and carry, you could also add the bunkering is definately one thing you've got to factor in....there are no easy birdies to be had.

 PS I thought you were going a bit easy on Roundhay course as for a long time the 2nd was a Par 5 which off the yellows was a drive and 6/7 and any low handicapper walking off there with a five knows he screwed up. 

I don't know if things have changed but pars are allocated on the total length of a hole, being the number of shots required to reach the greens and then 2 putts per hole added. So par 3's ere up to 250 yards long, par 4's were up to 475 yards long and eanything above wasa par five.

By making the SSS below the par for course means in effect that I have to get on either a par three in zero or a par four in one, which we all know is impossible.

If I hit the ball the average distance claimed by members of golfshake then I would have not trouble playing the longer courses, but I don't, so, because of this I find that it is better for me to play off the back tees as it gives me a better chance agianst the better player who then finds that the game is harder for him off the back tees than it is for me as I don't reach long par fours in two anyway. 

I always play off the whites at my home club as we have always done so.

Put me 275 yards down every fairway and I will shoot low single figures on any course you would care to name.

David, I don't necessarily agree that a higher SSS means that the degree of difficulty is higher than a course with a low SSS. I gave one example of Wimbledon Common and I know of many others where the low handicappers avoiud like the plague because of their difficulty in playing to their handicap at them.

In respect of you saying that the CSS in a stableford competition sometimes means that 40 pts is playing to ones handicap, my experience tells me that in the Golfshake events alone, no attempt is made to work out the CSS ad the system does not allow for someone playing your so called easier course to get a handicap adjustment upwards because the course the event is being held at is far tougher.

So we will always have this anomaly of certain clubs producing better handicapped players.

It i a pity that golf course designe has gojne down the length route as opposed to the accuracy route.

We are breeding power hitters now who hit the ball obscene lengths. A young lad at my course currently doing his PGA course plays the first par five on the Waterloo with a drive and lob wedge, a hole I cannot reach in three and he can dump on the second on the Wellington all carry of over 300 yards, a hole that is a drive and usually an eight iron for me.

John,

Are you actually saying that SSS should start at Par, so it is OK to have a Par 72 with a SSS of 72 but not 70?

When the SSS goes below Par the only people effected as you state are the really low Hcp's (Par 72, SSS 70 means 2 Hcps and below). As I said earlier, ANY 5Hcp'er should be able to reach 6 of the Par 4's at Roundhay and the SSS is only 3under Par.

David,

In effect, yes, I am saying that we could and should do away with SSS as it is the same for everyone who plays. Most members play the majority of their golf at their home club, so the SS is irreleveant to them.

Now if the system, as you like it, took into account that a player visiting a different course with a different SSS for a competion is given a handicap adjustment then I could probably accept it, but this never happens. Everyuone has to play to the same conditions on the same day, so why on earth does an SSS need to be introduced.

I have never seen Roundhay but looking at the yardages I would expect to shoot a good score there, as only two holes are out of reach for me in regulation, but I would not be able to get on any of the other par fours in one shot and quite honestly the pars were made so that this did not happen, but unfortunately we have a new breed who hit the ball miles.

But then again the course could be like Wimbledon Common and be a very tight difficult golf course that just does not suit the low handicapper.

A completely new approach to handicapping has to be made and the decimal point system got rid of. I suspect though that being a low man yourself the decimal system enables you to maintain your handficap much easier than when everything moved a shot at a time.

John,

During my time at Roundhay we "lost" a lot of low Hcps to other courses, not because they found it hard to play to their Hcp but because it was easier for the higher Hcp'ers to play BELOW theirs. We used to play on an evening, off 'Stick-end' and if you shot over 32 (-2) you had no chance of being in the mix. Sub 30's were normal, Hedley once shot 29 and lost, didn't even finish 2nd.

SSS is "Standard Scratch Score" and is just that, a score a "Scratch" player should shoot. Your Hcp then gives you a Standard Score to shoot in order to play to it.

SSS + Hcp = Target Score. Your Target Score then changes from course to course depending on its SSS.

In the US your Hcp is based on Par and changes depending on Slope & Differentials but in the end arrives at the same result.

Member at Roundhay shoots 70's so is 5Hcp here and 2Hcp in US. Goes to Moor Allerton and they still play off 5Hcp but in US they would play off about a 6Hcp because of the difference in Slope etc. 

If in my next Medal or Stableford at Horsforth I shot -1 or -9 under CSS the result would be the same, 6 to 5 Hcp. Or 5.6 down to 5.4 or 4.6, so if I came in with a 67 (-4) Gross I would only drop ONE shot.

At this moment in time there are only 58 professionals playing to scratch out of 149 competitiors at the BMW, Wentworth. It is a good thing they are not handicapped like us amateurs.

David, you said.

SSS + Hcp = Target Score. Your Target Score then changes from course to course depending on its SSS.

I understand that, no problem but if, as you say, that players at different course are better than some players at other course because of the degree of difficulty why isn't there an alteration in the handicaps. I have to play off 16 whether it is a pitch and putt or Donnington Grove, when it is obvious, to me at least, that a 16 handicapper at Donnington Grove is a much better player than me at Sherfield Oaks.

But isn't that just GOLF. You can also have a former Scratch Player getting old and now off 7 and a young 17yr old off 7 too but which is the "better" player?

BTW, the way CSS works if the CSS goes to SSS +4 then its a Non-Qualifier and so no Hcp changes.

I know who is the most experienced player but then again youth does have its advantages.

CSS at every club I have been involved with always goes down, never up.

This confuses me too.

If you take Carnoustie, with a par of 72 but a SSS of 75. If you were to shoot +3 regularly there, would you then become a scratch golfer at Carnoustie?

Then if I invite a Scottish freind who plays off 19 at Carnoustie down to Pedham in Kent, with a Par of 72, and a SSS of 69, does he have to play off 13? And then when I return to play at his course, do I play off 25? If not, what is the point of SSS?

Thank you Danny, for putting it the wy I see it.

I got to say I think 69 is very tough for a scratch score at pedham.

Of course it is, Danny, we all know that, where does one pick up the three shots?

 "But isn't that just GOLF. You can also have a former Scratch Player getting old and now off 7 and a young 17yr old off 7 too but which is the "better" player?"

David I found this out the other night ,be it i'm not 17 and I dindn't much like the answer  eithier.

Danny,

When your friend comes down from Carnoustie he plays off 19 at Pedham as you would play off 19 if you went to Carnoustie. The difference is that  94 at Carnoustie against 88 at Pedham would be the scores needed to play to your Hcps.

I have looked at Pedham and see that the Yellow Tees have a SSS of 69 and four Par 5's measure 457yds, 468yds, 497yds and 488yds plus you have 314yds, 303yds and 299yds Par 4's. A Scratch Golfer should find a few Birdies among them.

So if you were shooting 94 at Carnoustie you'd be a 19 handicap, and not 22? I thought a handicap was worked out on par for each hole.

No, Danny, and therein lies the rub, handicaps are based on the SSS.

Thats ok John as long as a 94 at Carnoustie and a 88 at Pedham still gives you a 19 handicap.

With your power though, Danny, I am quite sure you would find it easier to play to 19 at Carnoustie than the tricky Pedham.

Sorry John

So you've played Carnoustie off the back tees often?

I'm afraid you would not make such comments if you had.

Well Martin, so you have come out of the woodwork again with your stupid comnments, when you have no idea where I have played and what I have scored.

I played Carnoustie in the seventies with a young friend of mine who was a student at St. Andrews University, so I have played some of the courses that you Scots seem to rave about so much. We down the south have courses that are the equal, if not better than those you claim to be so difficult. Yes, even courses that are not on the open rota.

I had no difficulty playing to and under par at any of your so called famous courses.

I might also add that Danny, may be 19 handicap but I would bet that he would out power you with ease, so playing off the back tees at Carnoustie is not the daunting prospect you are attemtpting to create.

Please do not assume that I am an idiot as I can handle you all day long, with your snidey little remarks.

John,

Your mension of the Open rota got me thinking. I have played all the present day Rota apart from Royal St Georges both when they have been set up for The Open and when the Members have it to themselves. I found that they all seem different courses with the two Set-ups.

I play with some Press friends each year, about two weeks before the event and have shot some reasonable scores the last few years. I told them before Hoylake that I thought Tiger may not hit Driver all week, and I was nearly right. Everyone who has played a course once thinks that that is the course but play it often and it can become a different place.

John played Carnoustie in the 70's, Martin may have played it last year? and the course may have been totally different.

Taking the title of this thread, a 19 Hcp'er who hits a long Ball, could be a BANDIT on an open 6500yds course but wouldn't break 100 on a 7400yd tight Watery course.

David,

I am quite sure that they set the Open courses up differently to what the members play, but I doubt the length is altered, unless new tees are introduced. Then of course they become part of the members course.

I too have played Royal St. Georges and I believe it is a very stern test under Open conditions. Have you played the couirse next door that held the Open in 1932, Princes.

Have you ventured as far as Saunton in Devon, where they held the Schweppes PGA in 1965 and the best score over four rounds was a 69. a course that would grace the Open Championship if it had the Hotels to cope.

Danny is a tremendous striker of the ball and should not have the handicap he does. His short game tends to be a long game as he cannot seem to hit the softer shots. He would be great if he had the touch of that old Pro famed for long hitting, Harry Weetman.

Come on David, start writing about the tour, you know you want to.

I have no idea of how you have played or how you have scored? Yet you assume that somebody can out-hit me without even seeing me strike a ball.  That quite clearly is idiotic!  For your information Carnoustie has changed dramatically since the seventies.  In actual fact I haven't claimed that Carnoustie is so difficult, I merely said that it was a more difficult course to play than Pedham( after looking at the course on the net).  But now you come mention it Tiger Woods shot 6 over for the Open in 1999, the same year that Sergio Garcia missed the cut.  I am sure that they would tell you that Carnoustie is not the easiest course to play.

John this post was not whether Scotland's courses were better or more difficult than those in England but once again you wish to reduce the chat to a slanging match between Scotland and England.

John I am dissapointed in the manner in which you spoke to me where your opening line shows you to be rude and obtuse. 

I thought you said in a PM that there would be no more slagging just for the hell of it. Obviously you were just talking nonsense. 

Now if you are going to post a comment about one that I have made, be pleasant, I will listen to all reasonable remarks. 

Martin

The Open is set-up for the Championship and the Members can play it if they want but most stick with the Back Pegs because they can't even reach the fairways off the Championship Tees.

You also have holes like Birkdales 6th and Carnousties 18th. Par 5's for the Members but played as a par 4 during The Open.

I won a toiunment at Birkdale partnering the Scottish Pro, Jimmy Hulme from Gullane.

Why would the last  at Carnoustie be a par five for the members when it is only 444 yards long. I am quite sure they have a fair few low hanicap players at that club.

The 18th at Carnoustie is 444 Meters (485yds) off the Championship Tee and there is TWO further Tees further back.

Then perhaps you should write to the Carnoustie Golf club and point out that their website is showing incorrect distances for their championship course.

http://www.carnoustiegolfclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=47

John

That is not championship tees, don't be silly now.

Carnoustie LINKS is a public Golf Course and Carnoustie Golf Club plays on that course. The Links may not allow the use of The Champioship Tees for anyone but Tournaments like The Open etc.

Last time is was there and the Scorecard I kept gives the 18th as 443yds off the Back Tee which is classed as the one on the Clubhouse side of the Barry Burn. The Open was played off a  Tee the other side of the Burn and there is at least one other Tee further back. If it is 444yds from all three Tees then I stand corrected.

In am not attempting to correct anyone. just that it was such a long time ago since I played there that it is reasonable to accept that I have not remembered the yardages of any hole there, so I looked up the clubs website and I quoted from it.

Now if you are telling me that there are other tees on this particular hole that only come into play on the Open Championship days then the members will never play them, but still have to play the 444 yard last as a par four, which is quite right.

I am quite sure that all the courses on the Championship rota have been gradually lengthened where possible to cater for the enormous lengths the modern pro hits the ball.

I don't know if anyone watched the golf at Wentworth yesterday but the length of the drives were huge and made a mockery on some holes. The 12th for example is a par five which in my day I could reach for two with a driver and three wood/2 iron, but they have moved the tee back now and I watched Mr Wal hit a drive and a five iron to pin high, 531 yards.

Having said that, I feel that to shoot under par for two rounds in 1964 having to hit clubs much stronger in loft than they do now proves to me that this game has not advanced in skill as some seem to be claiming all the time. Yes, I am talking about myself as that is the only yardstick I have to judge anything by.

Martin

you say you never seen an 17 handicapper shoot 1 under over a run of 4 or 5 holes, i find that strange, i once played the back nine over Risebridge GC  in one over par, and i had a 4ft putt on the 18th for level par, unfortunately i played the front nine in 14 over. At the time i was a 21 handicapper. Sometimes you are just in the zone, that was 5 or 6 years ago and to this day i have never had a back or front nine as good and i am considerably better player now.

Bandits are those that shoot over their handicaps on a regular basis, but maybe dont enter their card so not to get cut, not someone having a blinder.  

Martin, I play off an official club handicap of 28, yet the other week i managed to finish the last four holes, bogey par par bogey, after my shot allowance that equated to -4. final tottaled -1 for the 18

i had four decent holes and 14 not so.

this morning i went round 9 holes in -4 net, so hopefully i am heading in the right direction now, really looking forward to the new season so i can start to get the handicap down to something a little more respectful.

apologies for the double post..

as stated above my official club handicap is 28, in the sunday fiddle i was given 26 and went on to win with 42pts, i was immediately chopped to 21, after gaining a shot following an awful round i went on to win again playing of 22, cut again to 19 and since then have struggled to score 25pts. unfortunately i have gone back up to 24.

It can be very annoying when you loses a match to a very low score when you yourself have played well. But you can,t brand every one a bandit or cheat just because thay have played well above their usual standard,  I myself have made 5 birdies in a row  but only came in level par which is the same as a high handicapper shooting five pars in a row, Take the pros for instance I watched some golf on the TV today,  The leader shot an 8 under, and the last player in the field shot an 8 over, bearing in mind that they are all playing of scratch    ,does that make the leader a bandit?  no he just had a good day. Anyone can play a better than usual game, on any given day, the same as they can play a complete load of crap on any given day, I play with a number of players of varying abilities and they have all played both good and bad off there respective handicaps. You need to focus on your own game to play to the best of your ability, if you can do that, but you still lose then so be it.