stuck up golf clubs

Dear Mr Cook

I refer to our previous correspondence and your provisional booking on the above date.

I note that your booking is actually being promoted as a ‘public event’ through golfshake.com  and is therefore not what we would class as a golf society booking. Ganton welcomes all visiting golfers who are members of a recognised club and hold  current handicaps. However, because of the very nature of the course (and indeed the Club) it is not suitable for ‘casual golfers’ who quite frankly would find the course far too difficult and the traditional Club with its strict dress codes etc not to their taste.   

At the time of your booking we did ask you to sign our Booking Form and return this with a deposit of £15 per player. If you still wish to secure this booking, I would ask for the following:

An assurance that all participants are members of a recognised golf club with a current handicap.

Return of the Booking Form  duly signed as an agreement to our terms and conditions.

The thing is we prob/ play more golf courses than any of there members do and treat all with the respect and recognition that they require

Assuming I'm still allowed to play, only being a casual golfer and not used to 'difficult' courses, if I find one pitch mark, unreplaced divot or unraked bunker I shall play merry hell.  

Sorry to read about this, Paul. Unfortunately this is because of the one man in power at that club, namely the secretary. You have not warranted being patronised by someone who probably does not play the game all that well, himself.

I would send the list of those who have put their names down together with their handicaps.

I have come across this kind of person many times in the old days but thought that this attitude had changed. I was obviously wrong.

 I'm afraid that Ganton is, and will be, for a long time to come, one of those clubs that wants to keep the 'riff raff' out, simply because they can and are not skint, being a championship course, hosting the Ryder cup a few years ago etc. I've noticed over the years that clubs in the lower pecking order (but still believed they were a cut above) have changed their stance and HAD to let the oiks in otherwise they'd go under.

 Ganton boast of welcoming visitors: I looked into playing there earlier this year and looked at some comments made by people on an independant website and those comments don't reflect Ganton's boast.

 I wonder what'll happen when they need the money  

Write back and tell them that you don't think the golf club is up to the standards required for you players.

Russ

Paul,

if they make you feel like shit before you get there imagine the reception you'll get when you do arrive, they'll be watching you all like hawks & anyone duffing there 1st tee shot will be yanked off the course & banished.

It is after all your hard earned cash & I personally would want it to go to someone / somehwere that deserved it.

John.

Paul, someone mentioned this course to me on Sunday.  Said they played with a society last year, similar format to you.

They said:

They were rushed when they teed off. When they arrived after 18 holes for an hours lunch they were told they had 15 minutes.  They advised of the hour slot and were told in no uncertain terms to either tee off in 15 minutes or leave the course. Thus having no choice.  The guy said he would never go back.

Regards, Darren.

Knowing Ganton as well as I do, I can see why they replied like they have. It is not a course for high Hcp or Novice golfers and the Club do have a strict Dress Code. The fact Paul put "Public" would have hit alarm bells from the Secretaries Office to the Pro Shop. All visitors to Ganton GC must have a valid Hcp.

If you feel that this is not the place for you find another course near-by, there are enough.

BRIDLINGTON LINKS

FILEY

SCARBOROUGH NC or SC

MALTON & NORTON

YORK (Strensall)

All welcome visitors and are cheaper too.

In all honesty,

SOD em.

Go somewhere else, I'm sure royal sandwich, St Andrews or Troon would welcome anyone with open arms that are willing to play.

Is it any wonder why golf is classed as an elitest sport.

 Id, add to David's list of alternatives:

Flamborough and Driffield. Both good courses, considerably cheaper and really decent people.

 It is unfortunate that people want to play challenging courses but having played them wish they'd never have bothered because of the way they were treated when they were there.  I'd like to think I'm quite thick skinned but you'd have to be brain dead not to notice the complete contempt you're met with. Muirfield was the worst.

I think this is amazing.

I went to Pebble Beach 3 yrs ago, as I was staying in Carmel. Now i was in combat trousers, t-shirt and trainers as I was on holiday and wanted to see the Hallowed track.

I wasn't playing by the way, just wanted to soak up the atmosphere.

As I approched the First tee, The Pro and the Course Marshall came up to me and asked if I needed any help. I explianed that I was there on hols and I'm a golf nut. Told them that I wanted to see the course....

So, to my amazement, I was given a driver a ball and a tee and asked If I wanted a drive down the first. Which I did, even though there were 2 groups waiting to tee off.

THIS IS THE ATTITUDE CLUBS WANT. I will always remember that feeling and knowing that I want to spend the $320 for a full round.

this is one of the most famous clubs on the planet.

frankly Mr Secretary (of whatever club Paul cook got the letter from) Stick your course up your backside along side where your head is. GET OVER YOURSELF. my money is better spent elsewhere!!!!

Wayne,

I have no problem with the Club Secretary's comment, now that's not to mean I accept it (which I don't) but they are entitled to state whatever they want.

I agree with you, I think any club has the right to 'enforce' their rules / etiquitte on people who do not meet their standards BUT to do it before you have even arrived at the course is taking the P!$$.

I think everybody who turned up to the Belfry on Sunday did Golfshake proud & would have not offended any course marshall / secretary.

Perhaps Paul could get a letter of recommendation from the Belfry to back up the Golfshake reputation & standards??

John.

Interesting situation here, not sure what you are going to do Paul.  Obviously they know about the site now so I shouldn't think it's beyond them to be reading this.  Have you paid the deposit or not?  I would assume that as they have, in effect, breached their part of the contract by claiming, after your enquiry in good faith about a society match, that it is unsuitable for us 'casual', high handicap golfers that they would give you a full refund.  Do they not have any high handicap players as members or do you have to become good before you are allowed to join?  Unlikely.
What really gets me about this attitude is the assumption that as a 'casual' golfer I may get upset by having to adhere to their dress code.  I may not agree with it or the reasons for having it, but I would respect it.  To assume I wouldn't is insulting and shows that they, not I, are more inflexible and intolerant than the very people they are trying to discourage.
As for the course being too difficult for me, Why is that - 300 yard carries over shark infested waters? land mines?  herds of wilderbeast sweeping majestically over the fairways?  Come on, is it harder than the Belfry, Dalmahoy, St Pierre, Conwy, Gramacho, Pinta or any of the other courses that I've managed to hack around in 34-36 points for the first time?   Whereas if I went out and joined a mickey mouse club and played 3 times a year to get a handicap it would somehow make me a more acceptable person. Not too keen on playing there now, the experience has already been tainted. 

Good point Mr Flood regarding the Belfry. Although I'm sure Ganton GC is steeped in history that its very proud of, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Belfry is a bigger name in Amateur and Professional golf than Ganton. Did anybody experience any of this attitude at the Belfry? I think not.

Paul

Tim,

No its only 200yds to carry the gorse, the same gorse that is only 20ft off three sides of several greens. That is after half of the gorse was taken out for the 2003 Walker Cup.

Believe me, if you don't know where your balls going take THREE DOZEN with you.

A few years ago I was invited to join some friends who played there, half said they would not play it again until they were good enough (Under 10 Hcp). A Social round should be enjoyable and not a toil.

I have played a number of elite courses, Muirfield is the top, Ganton, Lindrick, Alwoodley, and Scarcroft are Yorkshires.

The big difference between The Belfry and Ganton is that The Belfry is there for Golfers and Ganton for its Members.

BTW add BRIDLINGTON Belverdere and HORNSEA to the alternates.

David, I appreciate that it may be a tough course but a hazard is a hazard.  You play a course for what it is, if the fairways are 3 ft wide you change your game to suit and that's what the game is all about.  I'm just as capable of losing a ball on an easy par 3 as I am on a viciously guarded green.  To assume that I'm not capable of doing this just because I play off 20 is arrogant in the extreme (I don't mean not you personally, I mean the club) and frankly insulting.

With letters like this being posted to people/societies wanting to play thier course, in my opinion is damn right disrespectful to us players, i agree with tim with regards to " play a piss pot course 3 times to get an official h/cap and then you can play thye course" ffs im not a pro golfer or anywhere near just an average 14 handicapper so yes i can hit the ball well and yes i can dig the ground up hell even pros duff shots but do they get kicked off the course they are playing NO so to be honest i would turn to this secretary and say shove it up your arse you pompus stuck up prick, as others have mentioned (wayne, john) we respect all clubs right to place rules on bookings like this even if we dont agree with them, i also think that a course of the belfry's stature and history which i believe to be alot more in depth than ganton (ask most players which they recognise) gave us an incredibly fantastic day and welcomed us with open arms,

If this course is so desperate for us not to play it then f**k them dont play

I used to play a lot of Golf with Gordon Manson, assistant at Ganton in the early 80's and knew Laurie Clarke, there Caddy Master. They knew then that many golfers came to Ganton and went away with Bad Feelings for the place, because they didn't enjoy the course. It was too difficult for them. The 16th sends shivers down my spin even now.

The Club may feel that taking £78 off a Golfer who doesn't enjoy themselves is not of benefit to them.

One funny episode at Ganton was when a visitor was asked to move his "Banger" from the front Car Park to the back one. He did so with no argument and when he was on the first tee saw a Member thin a bunker shot on the last that smashed the windscreen of the BMW that had parked were his car had been.

Guys, can we please refrain from the use of bad language in open forum and assassination of an individual who is enforcing the rules of a golf club.( it may not even be his/her point of view).

@ David

yes i agree i apologise for my bad language in my post, but it really gets my back up when people/clubs act and say things to try to make out that they are "superior" to others just because they have a little more money than others these certain people need to remember that we all pee in the same pot and money is money wherever it may come from i.e members or joe public

so again for my previous post i apologise for the bad language and it wasnt posted to offend any certain individuals

its justy my opinion on the matter, we all can have an opinion

Have to agree with much of what's already been said guys.  My feelings are similar to the ones expressed above by Tim.  Let's go to a course that wants us and will wlecome us all, not one where we feel every movement is being scrutinised.  We all play to enjoy the game after all and it sounds like we may not here. 

Do you guys realise, THE BELFRY and PEBBLE BEACH are both Public Golf Courses?

I think this thread has rather interestingly fragmented into two ie snobbery of certain golf clubs and difficulty of certain courses which David Lythgoe opened up. I'd like to add to David's line of thought but I can't think of how to put it without sounding blindingly patronising. Be wary of playing courses above your ability. In my view there is nothing worse in golf than striking the ball well, putting it more or less where you want it to go and scoring 110+ which is what happened to me when I played Muirfield in my hey day sharking off 6. The previous day I did a three over par gross at North Berwick (two shots were due to me not realising that grounding your club on sands of firth of Forth). I played as well each day.

 Since that day any triumph/ self congratulation for comp or good round I've won is short lived as the Muirfield round reinforces that I'm not such a billy big boots. It's like once you've sht yourself you can never say you've never sht yourself. Maybe that's just me, low self esteem unfulfilled career, awaiting the mid life crisis just pranged the car etc.

I have found that Golf Clubs fall into one of five catogories.

Cat 1 You need to be introduced and play with a Member and that member is restricted to the number of people he can invite. LOCH LOMOND

Cat 2 You must be introduced by your own Club and bring a Hcp certificate. MUIRFIELD

Cat 3 You need a Hcp certificate from a Golf Club to play. GANTON

Cat 4 Although it says that you need a Hcp certificate, they allow group bookings from Societies. FILEY

Cat 5 Public or Muni's that allow anyone to play. ROUNDHAY

There is a Cat 6. The Old Course at St Andrews. Book 12months in advance or stay in the Old Course Hotel to get a Tee-Time or face the Ballot.

Interesting that they say that everyone must have a handicap but they don't stipulate that they must be of a certain standard!!! Just because you are a member of a club and have a handicap cert doen't make you a capable golfer.  I would suspect there are plenty of nomads who are better players than some attached to clubs, and just because players use Golfshake doesn't automatically make them 'casual golfers'. 

Truth is, it is down to the players who have put their name down for the comp to decide whether they wish to put up with snobbery (assuming they are attached to a club and therefore actually have a choice!).  I would have had my name down for this comp had I not been on honeymoon, but I feel I would be withdrawing at this point.  In general, I agree with Tim's comments (engineers always talk sense!).   

 Chris I agree entirely with you. Being a memeber of a club to me is a bit of a waste of money. I like to play a variety of courses so it could be argued that the 'casual' golfer is more enthusiastic about the game than your club member.

 I'll wait for the flak 

Patrick,

Are you going to join the Card Scheme run by the YUGC?

I'm up at Horsforth so we are members of the 1906 club, cheap golf at 48 other clubs and also get "member guest" rates at 12 other LDU Clubs.

Another alternative is to join one of the clubs at a Muni, Roundhay is about £80 p.a. and then you have the benefit of being a member of a Golf Club and money to play where ever you want.

 David, thanks for letting me know. Even tho' at this moment I'm not a member I still need to put my letter of resignation before end of month I'm actually planning to join  Moor Allerton (interview permitting) as I need a base with good practice facilities and MoorAllerton are offering a £500 twilight membership ie play the course after 4pm, the only thing you can't do is enter comps. This way I can justify spending money playing elsewhere.

 I was up at Calverley practicing today and they've opened up part of the new 9 to make up (finally) a golf course with 18 playable holes tho talking to one of the lads it seems that a few of the 'new' 9 that they've been working on for years, has a serious drainage problem, his words were 'you'll need a wetsuit'.

Interesting point about members not being held up by hacking visitors, Johny P.  However, in my experience it's almost always the other way round.  Only recently we were told to wait for some members to tee off, fair enough, they should have priority.  They turned up on the tee, one of them went back to his car to get something, the lady in the group hit it 100yds down the track and the rest of them took 4 or 5 shots to catch her up.  We finally went 45 minutes after our alloted time - only to see them walk back in after the 4th hole!

In my days, payment of a green fee was recognised as you being a member of that particular club for the day, with all priveleges that the normal members enjoyed.

It was very rare to go away and pay a green fee as club life was very full and every member participated in the club activities. We all got to play other courses through the natural means of matches and open competitions.

Since the surge in these USGA spec courses, which were initially built for the corporate market with large sums being asked for, what I consider inferior courses, the normal rules regarding golf clubs separated into two completely different groups of player.

To cope with this demand the authorities decided to increase handicaps to the current 28 for men because it was impossible for anyone with such a handicap to get into a proper golf club. This has had a detrimental affect to the overall playing standards of today, even with supposedly vastly superior equipment. I don't agree of course, but then you all know that I wouldn't.

I am a me,mber at one of these type of courses and it is not what I have been used to throughout my golfing time. It is a pay and pay course, just like the Belfry with no real club atmosphere. Everyone is in a rush to get off the course after 4 and half hours of pergatory and shoot off home.

The only plus is that I get to play the other courses owned by Crown Golf for free during the week and at my age this suits me fine.

There is a Golf Club here in Leeds that was very very stuck up. At a AGM back in the early 80's it was proposed to ban all visitors and continue with a membership of 500. The Secretary knew this proposal was to be brought up and had done his sums. He told the meeting that for the Club to survive it would either need to double it's membership and get extra from the joining fees or up the Membership Fee to £1200 per head from the £400 it was.

Needless to say the motion was defeated and today this same Club is more open to visitors than it has ever been.

 David any hint of said club?

 Also I agree with John Petitt, a green fee gave the player a 'day' membership.  However, it's a no win siuation as member and visitor feel that they're the victim. I've been on both sides ie last year as a member playing with three guests:because of the late booking of a late large society (the club would not have said no to the green fees, catering and bar revenue) we had to play elsewhere, of course I was fuming by the embarrasment and inconvenience. On the other hand you are treated as a second class citizen when you're in a society. The variable in the equation is money, if the club wants it then the members will 'suffer'

Patrick,

You can hit a Driver and wedge from your possible new clubs 22nd Tee to this clubs 8th Tee. 

BTW, is Moor Allerton close to homework compared to Calverley, becuase there might be better options for you.

David, you must be talking about the club that put a 'The' (almost Godlike) in front of the old name though the area is remowed for good courses.

 Moor Allerton will be another 30 mins in the car. My thinking is that the practice facilities are anearly as important as the course and it'll take me a while to get bored of playing there.

Have come to this debate late. As far as I can see, Ganton doesn't require any more to play it than many private clubs. They just say:

Ganton is a challenging Championship Course and not suited to players without a current handicap certificate.

I would imagine that everyone has at least a Golfshake handicap so I don't see why we shouldn't play. I have absolutely no problems with respecting their dress code (which is hardly an unusual or drastic one - noty as if they want us to all wear plus fours). Personally i was going to travel up from London precisely because it is Ganton (and tough - surely that's the whole point). I probably wouldn't make the journey for another course in the area, though I know there are plenty of really good ones.

However I can see that this might put off lots of players so I'll understand if the consensus is to up clubs and move.

Wayne,

One of my group contacted The St Andrews Links Trust saying that we were planning to tour that area and would like to play 'The Old Lady' while passing through. We stated that we were only in the area ONE NIGHT and we got a starting time. We didn't ask for a actual day, just a Tee-time and we then planned the whole trip around that. Carnoustie and Muirfield on the same trip too. That was 2006 by the way.

I find if you ring the Secretaries and request help, you nearly always get what you want.

Wayne,

Did you try this site:-

http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/book_golf/old_course_experience.html

It may help, problem is that the 2010 Open goes to St Andrews so 2011 could be your first chance.

 Paul, regarding Flamborough: I've played there a good few times with golf socs, the last time was with a few friends where we got a gold coast pass (£50 to play Flamboro, Brid Links and Belvedere. Anyone who wants a good weekend should think about this) for my 50th last Sept. If you want I can give you a review of the course if people are interested.

 One note of caution: the weather there can change in minutes. I've played in thick fog where you can't see the lighthouse from 50yds to glorious sunshine. The course is a links which borders on the Bempton cliffs, people are down to earth and the food is excellent and I'm sure yo'd get change out of £30 for 18 holes and an evening meal, numbers permitting.

Can i bring my binoculars ? 

I've had a birdie, had a eagle, never seen a Albatross but seen a lot of Puffins at Flamborough Head

 Paul, lookng at the website link you supplied, they've now included a hole by hole description with pictures. If golf shakers copy and paste the following into the internet taddress they can see for themselves. I would say that there are about six holes that run paralell to each other so if it's busy you need your wits about you.

 http://www.flamboroughheadgolfclub.co.uk/pages.php/course_hole.html/f847809a-31e7-102c-a34f-001ec9b331b2/1.htm
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