BANDIT !!!!!

You know the scene. Monthly society you shoot a very tidy 39pts. ( im in with a chance you say ) only to find 2 or 3 people over 40 pts. Bandits. I looked at my own career stats and of the 154 rounds ive played ive shot over 40 pts 11 times. This equates to 7% of my rounds. In a society of around 40 people if 7% get over 40pts this equates to 2.8 people (2 or 3 people ). How does your career rounds of more that 40pts add up? you may have to take off your 1st couple of rounds when your handicap was adjusted.

Maybe  it shouldnt be a suprise when 2 or 3 40+pts wins the next one.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

I have threatened to shoot those kind of scores, Dave, but never yet achieved a 40 pointer. let alone over 40 points.

Being fairly new to golf, I find it interesting that so much of amateur golf relies on handicap. I can see good and bad things. Good that it allows some close competition sometimes but does it really encourage people to get any better? In my main sport running we all set off and the best runners come in first and bag all the prizes. Those further back seem quite happy just to compete against their previous times and against their mates.

For me handicap is more a measure of my ability (or lack of!). I won a society day last summer when played well (for me) but I am almost certain I was not the best player there so although it was nice to win a few golf balls, I was more pleased to see my handicap coming down here. Also I am not sure the SSS mechanism works very well. I played a twlight round today at Old Thorns and realised these "championshp" courses are a lot lot harder than the local pay & play! Even off the yellows, the par is 72 but the SSS is 70. To me it felt a good 10 shots harder than the largely drive and wedge course I played last week and yet the SSS was only a few less. I kind of think if I was a member at Old Thorns I would be a lot better player than at the pay and play but my handicap could well be more.

Er, BANDIT here...

46pts playing off 4 on a damp, windy day on a strange course.

Took loads of stick as I went up to collect my prize but got loads of congratulations when it was announced I achieved it off 4.

I think anyone around 5 handicap should never be accused of being a bandit as they are capable of sub par rounds. Nothing but congratulations to you Brian, I'm sure you'll (deservedly) look back on this day with good memories for a long time.   

I won two monthly stablefords during the winter with returns of 46 and 45 points and a second place with 43. Handicap has tumbled to 21 (20.7)

I won 'Best Gross' in a Medal with a 68 (nett 62) which the computer showed as 44pts. Didn't even feature in the main prize though.

Won one a few months later with a nett 68 (38pts)

Golf is up and down and that is why it is impossible to have an acurate Hcp all the time, even the Tour guys can range 10 shots plus,  in a round.

TheLyth

My husband took up golf again after 16 years without picking up a club. His lowest handicap had been 2. He played 4 rounds at our new club and although his handicap worked out to be about 14 they put him on 7 as they had seen his swing and knew his capability. In the first year he dropped from 7 to 3.5 but in the process managed to win Presidents Day with a score of 45 points and a new course record. I haven't heard anyone begrudge him his win as he played brilliantly.

Another player also scored 45 points and lost on a countback. The other player was a junior off about 28 and there would have been grumblings if he had won it.

I have to say I agree with The Lyth, it is possible for anyone to shoot a low score on any given day, as it is possible to shoot a crap round aswell, last year I shot scores ranging from 67 to 82.  I just try to shoot as low as I can on the day and if I can shoot a PB then I am happy even if it doesn't win.   

All this talk of 45 and 46 points is beyond me !

I would need to shoot below par to achieve this !

The system cannot be right if another player is capable of doing something that i cleary am not able to compete with.

Robert is not the bandit, the system ( not dropping ) is to blame.

I just dispare when i hear about such scores !!!!!

Tim, I am with you on this, anyone who shoots those kind of scores is cheating, simples.

When Tiger shot his 62  the other week at the bear trap he would have scored 44pts stableford. It does happen. Although a pros handicap is lower limited to 0. When some amatures play of +6.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

All handicap qualifiers must be played using full handicap and can be played as any of the strokeplay formats - medal, bogey or stableford.

Dave is the par not 72 at the PGA national?  Tiger was a + 8handicapper as an amatuer so he would in theory have got 38 points based on par 72 or 36 on a par 70.

Tim,

Not necessarily. Many clubs are par72/SSS71 from the whites and some are par72/SSS69 from yellows. Using SSS, "playing to handicap" would be 37 and 39 points in those 2 instances, and with the CSS variation could be 38 and 40 points.

It is misleading to suggest that all scores of 45 points relate to playing 9 under handicap.

JP, how come everyones a cheat in your eyes? I play weekley give me cards in, play to the best of my ability, and try my hardest to get my handicap down. I shoot the odd 40 point + score everyone does but i'm not cheating it's called progressing. I'm playing by the rules laid out that's not cheating, blame the system not the player i'm sick of hearing you call people cheats.

Listening to you go on about what a "wonderful" player you were back in the "good old days" surely you must have had the odd good week, if you didn't how did your handicap  come down? Get your head out the clouds and if you can't say anything nice to people i wouldn't bother if I were you.

Handicaps can only really work if one uses all golf cards to count, most of the problems arise when people don't enter enough counting cards. Gary said that Tiger was a +8 handicapper when he was an amatuer, but probably wouldn't be if he was using the cards from the tour courses don't remember him being around 30 under for four days very often, and on the scores he has been shooting over the last couple of years his handicap would definatly have gone up so when he shot the 62 he would have scored more points than has been suggested, also higher handicap players tend to have inconsistant games so it is possible for them to go from one extreme to the other. 42 points is often scored at my club comps in the second and third division but not very often in division one, any higher is normally by new members or players who have probably not entered enough cards, and only plays the occasional comp. Having said that if someone is improving rapidly then they will be shooting low scores and scoring high points. Personally for me if people want to win trophy's playing off a handicap they know is too high, then the trophy isn't worth anything.

James

I am sorry but i disagree.

I fully understand the sss system, but i would still need to shoot 9 better than my handicap to score 46 points on my home sss 71 par 72course.

I am not talking about the 39 and 40 point hauls but  its the 45 to 50 that i have an issue with.

I am saying like Russel above, that these scores rarely occur in cat 1 but appear much more frequently in cat 3.

Although i could never achieve a score of this nature, i know that others can which i feel makes a mockery of a system designed to even different levels up, when in a minority of cases it does exactly the opposite !!!

The original thread was about bandits, and not the system, so in my opinion, those players that enter all their cards are blameless and the system is at fault.

HOWEVER, we all know those who do keep their handicap vainly low or artificially high !!!

David is right, I had a shocker at the weekend 7 blobs but playing of my club handicap 25 still scored 32 points. 5 blobs on the front 9 but 15 points scored, birdying two holes I had 2 shots on didn't help but if I would have been scoring a medal round i would have had a net 82!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't consider my 46pts as cheating, or more importantly played off a false handicap. At the time I played pretty much every competition I could and returned every card. I've never ever ever deliberately dropped a shot, especially to get 0.1 back. If a round has been going badly I've fought to stay in the buffer zone.I've shot mid 60's gross a number of times, which would see stableford points somewhere in the mid 40's, and fail to see where I've cheated. Its not me that manages my handicap, its the club.However, I also have a very good matchplay record and if I was to rationalise my scoring I'd say I'm not the best strokeplay player. A change to the handicapping system that would take into account a player's ability in all forms of the game might see some players, myself included, with a different handicap.But a cheat? That's laughable...

Tim

I don't know if your 8.5 handicap is a CONGU handicap or a Golfshake handicap but I assume the former as you talk about your home track. Brian has shown that it is perfectly possible to score 46 points off a low handicap - in his case 5. Granted you (and Brian) would be less likely to do it more than once than someone who is on the improving curve from a high handicap base.

The difference, GaryH, is that back then I was not geting any strokes to help me. Played today in the Mid-week stableford and surprise, surprise, 44 points from a 20 handicapper. Another one 8 shots under their handicap. If you think CONGU is fair then you are talking nonsense.

David is right, I had a shocker at the weekend 7 blobs but playing of my club handicap 25 still scored 32 points. 5 blobs on the front 9 but 15 points scored, birdying two holes I had 2 shots on didn't help but if I would have been scoring a medal round i would have had a net 82!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you had seven blobs but virtually a par at all of the remaining 11 holes bar one and you are trying to tell me you are not a bandit. I play off 19 now and made 2 pars today in my 33 points.

Birdies and pars are not necessary at your supposed handicap and when you shoot them like you have just admitted then no one is going to live with you in a matchplay situation. Get real Gary, it is you who is wrong, not I.

Anyone who can shoot 10 pars in a round and is masquerading off of 25 is a cheat, plain and simple.

I am sorry that you are all so touchy about being found out.

Take yourself, Paul. 14 rounds at an average of over 2 points per hole based on stableford. Your average pars per round is 6.5, this to me should see you off 11.5 but you are managing to retain that cushion which will make you a formidable opponent. In other words you are a better player than your handicap suggests. That's CONGU for you, assuming you are a bona fide club member or are you just a nomad keeping scores.

The handicap system is flawed, but all we have. In conjunction with playing stableford it is further exascerbated as pointed out by David Marshall. The problem is that Stableford is a popular inclusive format which gives everyone a chance, so is geared for Society golf but the 'losers' are undoubtedly the low handicappers but that is in justaposition to the difficulty of the course. If all comps were medal then as DM says it would be more of an opportunity for lower handicappers. Lets not forget that winning at stableford does not have the same kudos as winning at medal. Lets be honest, if you had the choice of getting your name on the board in the clubhouse I'd bet the vast majority would prefer the annual medal (no comments from low handicappers about the annual scratch please...you've made your blindingly obvious comments too many times before).

Paul. I used to play at Paisley most weeks in 1968 when I used to drive a truck to Scotland from Bristol. I used to re-load at "Brown & Polsens" (Mazola Corn OIl) and the transport manager and I would play at Paisley golf club whilst they were loading my truck..Is the factory still there or has it stopped production. Thanks for the invite.

Your own stats show that you are not an  inconsistent golfer, far from it.

If your boys have noticed then perhaps I am right and you should be lower.

I whole heartedly agree with you John I am not a 25 handicapper if I could putt better I would closen my self to half that value at least, problem is I can't putt and my scores are what they are and it is the handicap system that gives me that handicap not me, and it is the handicap system that does it's best to keep me where I am. I play to get my handicap down not to win, but whatever I play for I play by the rules laid out infornt of me. How does this make me a cheat????????? Like I say blame the system not the players.

Is there scope for societies to have there own modified rules. My rules would be you may only score 4 pts in a round once. All other holes limited to 3 pts. All blobs will return 1 point for handicap purposes only but zero pts for prizes. Any other ideas.

Dave CAC handed Geordie.

Paul. In those days I did long distance, being away from home all week, so clubs were always in the truck so that the long Scottish evenings could be taken advantage of. It just so happens that Brown and Polson was a regular backload for me and, as I said, the transport manager there was a member at Paisley. so we naturally took advantage of that. I was a scratch player in those days and never had a problem getting a game, no matter where I turned up.

I hope your boys continue to progress, it gets harder for them now, as you probably realise.

My stableford was won yesterday by a 20 handicap player shooting 44 points. This is on a course of 6875 yards off the whites. With the CSS taken into account he has been cut 2.1 shots so from 18.7 to 16.6. This, in my opinion is not a strong enough penalty for shooting that kind of score.

No, Paul, I don't have any recollection of the course, as it was such a long while ago, other than the fact that is was always in nice condition.

You might want to take a look at 'The Science of Golf' (Oxford University Press, 2011) which carries out a detailed  statistical analysis of handicap performance in strokeplay and stapleford competitions. I don't pretend to understand it all but it concludes there is rarely an advantage to higher handicappers under the British handicap system but more often one under the US handicap system (provided there are more than 35 people in the competition - don't ask me how it got that exact figure). It does concludes there is a signficicant advantage to higher handicappers in matchplay though. 

On the other hand,  we could just play a round and not worry too much about who gets a free Srixon cap at the end.